Glad to see you two got out - and just in time. I left about a month ago before the big announcement. Like most I was seduced by the "friendly atmosphere" that is portrayed on the forums.

It's only once you're there that you realize that it's just one big dysfunctional family. There are the favorite children who do and say what they are told, and are patted on the head, given a cookie and sent on their way to spam the internet to get more listers and then there are the red headed step children who are put in the time out corner for asking business related questions.

Every time I saw a post that said if you want to be successful you have to "list, list, list" all I heard was "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha". It's like a family sit com from the 70's over there. All they need is theme song and a maid named Alice and the site would be complete.

I know it's been said before, but it's worth repeating - Wagglepop doesn't need more listers, it needs more buyers. Until Ray makes the site more buyer friendly (i.e. no phone verification, and instant check out) there will never be enough buyers to support the site.

But I don't see that happening. I believe that Ray makes money selling and reselling the users personal information that he collects on signup. I couldn't see him risking that steady income for a chance that his site could actually make that $$ up in FVF's from sales.

It's interesting. I keep seeing phone verification complained about. It never happened to me - I was wondering if I got a special dispensation, or if this is a complaint "hangover" from an earlier time. Did it happen to one of your buyers?

I have also seen no increase in spam to my gmail acct since signing up with any of these sites, though the spam to my 13 y/o ISP acct ticks steadily on.

I'm starting to wonder if I have been treated differently from the average WP buyer, and I am suspecting the answer is YES.

purple_reading_giraffe wrote (View Post): › It's interesting. I keep seeing phone verification complained about. It never happened to me - I was wondering if I got a special dispensation, or if this is a complaint "hangover" from an earlier time. Did it happen to one of your buyers? I have also seen no increase in spam to my gmail acct since signing up with any of these sites, though the spam to my 13 y/o ISP acct ticks steadily on. I'm starting to wonder if I have been treated differently from the average WP buyer, and I am suspecting the answer is YES.

I personally experienced the phone verification thing back in Dec. 2006, so I know it was very real...at least at that time.

Yes, I suspect if you registered with your PRG ID, you were recognized and given special treatment.

I had signed up for WP 2 shortly after they opened, mainly so I could lurk the boards and get my "name". I know I didn''t get the phone ID at that time. Don't remember if they had a $$ ID verification at that time.

After lurking the boards and posting just a few "business" questions that were mostly ignored by the "girl" CS at the time, it was pretty easy to see that WP 2 wasn't a site I wanted to be involved with. Since I haven't signed in there in a LOOONNGGG time, I don't know if I'm even a "member" any more. Some of my questions may have gotten me banned, tho if so they didn't tell me.


It's really sad to see so much wasted energy involved with WP. Ray really does have the ability to drum up a "following". WP 1 was a good example of how lots and lots of sellers were putting plenty of effort into promoting the site. Even WP 2 still has it's share of devoted sellers.

Ray should really be the PR man for someone else's site. One where some one above him monitors what Ray says to be sure he's representing the site truthfully and there would be no censorship. Now that might be a site worth selling on and promoting.

Problem is, Ray will never want to be "under" someone after the power trip he's been on these last few years.

Carol

If I joined WP 2 (which I don't remember), I did not have to do the phone verification. I've got no comments on that.

Yet in the past hundred years or so, the word has taken on a very negative meaning and is now used to describe "weird" groups with "weird" practices and beliefs.

Despite the clear evidence to the contrary that cultic groups are causing untold amounts of social and personal disruption, many among us refuse to admit that a problem even exists, preferring to downplay, avoid or ignore the dire situation.

The most serious problem encountered by the man in the street is the amount of misinformation about the cult phenomenon that is gleaned from popular entertainment, sensational news reporting, and common prejudice.

They mount up their own shrill action plans complete with feigned outrage over alleged "intolerance" and "slander," intentional and intrusive surveillance of countercult leaders' lives, disruption of websites and meetings, and topped off with litigation aimed at bankrupting those they feel are their enemies.

7 ELEMENTS OF A CULTIC GROUP

1) A centralized form of leadership that rules with unquestioned authority

2) A body of convictions, beliefs, and practices set forth boldly as "the truth"

3) A compelling presentation of the group vision to prospects that is inviting and challenging

4) A series of manipulative socializing sessions to instill psychological dependence on the group

5) A definable process of group dynamics used to unethically control and manipulate members

6) A history of abuses of authority by group leaders freely using deception and fear tactics

7) A history of psychological and spiritual abuses of group members that destroy lives

Since I mentioned 'cult' in my previous post, I wanted to see if I could find the person on Oprah. I haven't, but did find a decent article....and since I choose to avoid religious/spiritual topics, I've pulled out just a few elements. You can read the whole article (or not) here: Spirit Watch: Cult Definition

Sometime around August 2006, I started noticing from first-hand experience how much about WP was very opressive and "cult-like." The more I thought about, the clearer it became. I began to sit down and itemize the similarities between WP, cults and repressive regimes. My findings appeared on TT back in October, 2006 and I maintain still hold true today:

1) shroud the philosophy in mysticism and secrecy. Make the followers feel they are “enlightened” and know something the rest of the world does not.

2) make the converts feel they are working toward a “common good”

3) convince followers that in order to persevere toward a greater cause they must suspend rational thinking at all costs

4) censor criticism in whatever form it appears and chastise those who engage in critical thought

5) segregate, punish and banish dissidents as polluters of the purity and sanctity of the cause, and praise those that participate in this "cleansing"

6) impress upon the faithful to be selfless, that they are part of something greater than themselves

7) give the faithful a sense of belonging and that belonging is a privilege that must be earned. Leaders have the right to suspend that privilege at any time should they feel it will benefit their own self-interests, using the argument that it is for the good of the members

carefully control the image of the movement

9) make the true leaders unapproachable – mystery enhances their bigger-than-life personas, but always have a visible “messenger” with whom the followers can relate, and a few disciples sprinkles around for good measure

10) exploit the weak, naïve and powerless and recruit them before they come to their senses

11) capitalize on the fears of followers and impress upon them that it is their duty and obligation to bring the “message” to the masses and recruit converts, as strength in numbers empowers the cause. Those under recruitment should consider it a privilege and an honor to be chosen to join the cult.

12) remind followers daily that they, and only they, are good and all others are eveil. Only the leaders and followers who have taken the oath are to be wholeheartedly trusted

13) have a common enemy (ebay)

14) comfort followers when tired and weary. They need not be concerned that the leaders are gleefully enjoying the fruits of the followers’ labors, nor should they ever question leaders’ motives or actions, for the leaders are the chosen ones – chosen as keepers of a wisdom beyond mortal comprehension, thus their welfare must be coveted and preserved in order for them to guide and protect their followers and lead them to a “perfect world.”

15) proclaim that the devout must rise above daily travails -- have faith and all will be well

16) never let followers believe they have power as individuals – it is only through their collective efforts can the goals of the leaders be achieved

17) followers must always believe that the ends justify the means, as questioning the means only distracts and delays the process necessary to achieve the ends.

1 continually remind followers that patience is the ultimate virtue. Should they ever feel that change is slow, always use the “Rome wasn’t built in a day” analogy and rewards beyond their dreams will given to those who are patient and faithful

19) create an oath of loyalty and make it known to all. This is the easiest way to identify evil infiltrators, potential pot-stirrers, spies and trolls, as they will hesitate to submit to the oath

20) use guilt, pity, and fear of reprisal liberally, as needed to control the followers, keep them loyal and amongst the flock. E.g. “I’m sorry if this may sound a bit negative, and I hope nobody gets angry and comes down on me for it, but I was just kinda, maybe wondering about something . . . . “ or, “Oh, please, please don’t run away from the flock. We love you – we need you – without you, we’ll be so sad . . . ” or “I can’t believe you’re going back to E-something. Are you crazy? And after all we did for you. . . “ or “I don’t know about anybody else, but I would never do business with “those” people ever again. . . I wish you well, but don’t come running back to us – you won’t be welcome here.”

21) leaders have the right to arbitrarily change the laws, policies, and procedures that govern their actions or the actions among the flock if they feel it is in their (the leaders’) best interests to do so. Since leaders have supreme wisdom, there is no need for followers to question leaders' decisions in these matters, nor would they, as they would not wish to risk abandonment from the cult or retribution from its leaders

22) foster the notion that the movement is a “family”, its members your brothers and sisters and its leaders your mothers and fathers. Incest is encouraged in cult philosophy – only “family” members are trustworthy.

23) praise those that rise within the elitist ranks and shower them with special privileges (WP’s Red Carpet program)

24) instill in the minds of the followers that cult membership has something unique, special, world-changing and unable to be obtained anywhere else except through blind allegiance to the leaders

25) control and eliminate, if possible, the availability to information that might tarnish the image of the leaders, its followers, or the movement in general.

26) establish a set of “Commandments” that members most adhere to explicitly. Leaders, however, are at liberty to step outside these commandments when it suits them, as they are the chosen ones.

Somebody who still has access the WP boards should copy and post this (designer's post above) there, repeatedly -- see how long it lasts. Hopefully, it would survive at least long enough to allow a couple in the flock to read it and possibly stir some thoughts.

I'd do it, but after my few little contributions to this thread my registered buyer's ID no longer works -- seems I've been excommunicated without a hearing or notification.

Some well written general information. Thank you.

I will say that I have NOT observed the following specific behaviours from the WP members - "intentional and intrusive surveillance of countercult leaders' lives, disruption of websites and meetings, and topped off with litigation aimed at bankrupting those they feel are their enemies.... and psychological and spiritual abuses of group members that destroy lives." (at least not where I can see it)

- although it does bear a resemblance to some others I have observed (except the litigation, none of us are that rich, I suspect). Perhaps at times we become overzealous in our need to protect the innocent and adopt guerrilla warfare tactics ourselves.

The content of the above posts is interesting and thought provoking, and with these warning signs in mind the now educated can go forth and make their own decisions.

I still suspect there are very few that are likely to ever sign up for Wagglepop under the current fee schedule [1 Jun 08], unless they are convinced (for some unknown reason) that it would be better for their business than RubyLane - that is hard to imagine considering the ranking and traffic RubyLane has for its price.

For the record: Even though back in October 2006 I considered WP a cult, as I do now, that was (and is) not my main objection. There is no law prohibiting cults, and if WP wants to be a cult, it has every right to be one.

What sent me kicking and screaming from the site is that WP is a cult masquerading as and touting itself to be a legitimate business and ecommerce venue -- and therein lies the grand deception upon which all the lies, broken promises, hypocricy and other unethical practices revolve. Members are "duped", deceived, and given false witness into becomming pons in one man's grand plan for power and glory -- paying handsomely for the privilege all along and doing so under the false impression that such self-sacrifice is necessary and honorable.

Even today there is NO MENTION WHATSOEVER on the homepage of a 300% store fee increase come June 1 for prospective sellers to see. Like aways, 1/3 of the home page is devoted to the GLORIES and Benefits of the grand Smart Sell program for $9.95/mo. Nor does it say the Smart Sell program will be obsolete in a WEEK! Only by clicking on two more links (should anyone care to go that far, or even know to click that far) will a prospective seller find anything about the fee increase buried in the WP-eze spin-it-like-we-want-it announcement.

Lifted from the tulip tool forum -- I hope the sharing will not offend anyone, but it's relevant to the cult mentality on display. Quotes from WP forums...

Grab your vomit bags before reading these posts

Quote from: The Nimrod
I can't wait to see Wagglepop Marketshare in action. This is going to be so much fun. I am really looking forward to being a part of the next chapter of Wagglepop and have a lot of work to do to get my store in better shape for the adventure.

Quote from: AndRay
The Nimrod,

Your efforts continue to epitomize everything an online seller can achieve and be through patient vision, hard work, and dedication to business plans and goals.

We look forward to your continued participation and "leadership by example" as we transition away from our "eBay roots" towards a more modern and effective 21st century marketplace.

Quote from: Popper
I am looking forward to all the positive changes I still think WP has the best to offer serious sellers and if you keep building your store to its potential and beyond I think that you will all find we will have a very strong community and best online selling and buying experience.

Quote from: Popper
I too look forward to the Wagglepop of the future. I have been revamping and expanding my store in preparation for the upcoming changes. I believe that the WP Marketshare will bring buyers to WP and we all will benefit so much from your insightful vision!

I am so excited to be a part of this new venture - and like a kid at Christmas I can't wait until the changes unfold and we get to see them for ourselves

Quote from: Full blown Cult Member
I am SO looking forward to the Wagglepop of the (near) future! I am so excited to be a part of this excellent selling/buying community...............

I would like to urge anyone who is thinking about leaving WP, to re-think it! Now is not the time to pull up stakes and leave a place that you have already established some ground with........

Quote from: AndRay
Full Blown Cult Member,

Good to hear you have been benefitting from the ever increasing marketplace dynamics - the percentage of sales relative to the overall number of listings has tracked consistently as increasing and has never been higher......

For sellers with quality "in demand" items and products, the combination of "unlimited listing and selling" under SSE along with the BusinessBuilder Advanced Selling Tools in a fixed cost enviroment may represent the single greatest business opportunity there is today for small business owners, online or off.


Quote from: AndRay
There will not be any appreciable application changes to Wagglepop beyond beta introduction of the new display set and introduction gradually of the Wagglepop Marketshare item and product portals.

SSE represents a philosophical change, away from underwriting so heavily the cost of participation (for what we thought would help eBay sellers to support their own competitive auction site) to direct support of our actual dedicated seller base.

Our focus now is to restructure as an item and product rich retail site that fufills the shopping needs of the general online shopper - the opportunity the larger online selling community rejected the past two years (either by disinterest, "dabbling", or bad faith default) we intend to capitalize on ourselves as merchants within the Wagglepop Marketplace.

In doing so, we are honored to join our core merchants in our ongoing effort to represent the very best of what online buying and selling can be.

LOL! Thanks for that. Doesn't that make you want to just jump in there and pinch them to wake them up from their dream? It's great to be hopeful, but their hopeful is going to cost them so much more $$ now while they continually wait and wait and wait......

FYI:

For those of you who weren't around for the opening of WP2, the Grand (re)Opening last March, the unveiling of the Ad Sense program, the Banner Ad campagne and other grand "plans" for a new and improved future, the above quotes almost exactly echo those of drugged poppers during those momentous occasions.

Most, if not all of those (except for Nimrod) who splattered the WP boards with praise and adulation during those auspicious times have since been excommunicated and have joined the never-ending parade of disillusioned X-Poppers who now populate the boards at Tulip Tools.

purple_reading_giraffe wrote (View Post): › Some well written general information. Thank you. I will say that I have NOT observed the following specific behaviours from the WP members - "intentional and intrusive surveillance of countercult leaders' lives, disruption of websites and meetings, and topped off with litigation aimed at bankrupting those they feel are their enemies.... and psychological and spiritual abuses of group members that destroy lives." (at least not where I can see it)

Here's the break-down on my own observations relative to the above post. A couple of WP folks cruise constantly the web. They go to TT, Crabby, PB, Yahoo Groups, etc. and when possible, interrupt the flow of business discussions.

They either begin the rah-rah of the cheerleading effort, or start the name-calling and condescending 'defend WP to the end' effort. You may not see it, as they've often gone back and changed or removed their posts. I suspect this was done as directed by the head-popper. Their posts after all do stimulate emotion and humorous response from folks who WERE at WP, but entered 'recovery' for peace.

The reference to litigation and bankruptcy can refer to emotional or financial. If you have only experienced ebaY, and get goat-roaped into WP, and then begin to see it's not a good fit, and you're paying more than you're making, the 'guilt' and blame-game begins - making you question your own judgment. So, you wonder if others are really having great success, and you keep holding on - even when your brain and gut tell you to flee, very fast!

Also, Ray has (as best I recall) suggested collections and suing numerous times towards sellers who supposedly owe another month for store fees, when they've closed their store in a time-frame intended to use up fees already paid.

I agree with DB - I personally have no issues with cults, nor does it matter as they are legal. It's the continued attempt to convince and con unsuspecting members that is just not right. Sites like WP (and a few others) have done an extreme injustice to the entire OAI. They show the true definition of selfish, personal gain - at any expense.

Dr. Phil's show today is about cults - if anybody has interest...