Power Sellers Unite

elgato · Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 17235 Location: Texas

The release of Windows 7 to manufacturing begins a tale of two operating systems: the one you want and the one you don't. It is packed with improvements and cool stuff, but it still carries a whiff of Vista that may put XP diehards off. That said, people who have gotten used to Vista will enjoy the fact that Windows 7 looks the same but acts a whole lot better.

Like many people who compute both at home and at work, I use XP and Vista as well as Mac OS X Leopard, and I like elements of all three. So I've been watching the beta and RC versions of Windows 7 very closely. Does the final "release to manufacturing" (RTM) code -- the same code that will ship with new PCs and retail versions of Windows 7 in October -- merit a jump from any of my current platforms?

Well, yes and no.
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DaLizardsLair · Joined: 15 Feb 2009 Posts: 4780

I use real simple logic.

When I purchase a new(er) computer, I will learn to use whatever OS comes with the machine.

beckysthisnthat · Joined: 02 Mar 2005 Posts: 1577 Location: Texas

I've heard that it smells of Vista a little too much...hard to find files, etc. I had my hopes set high, but my present puter won't be able to handle it just like it wouldn't handle Vista. I did the pre-order of W7, but guess I'll just sell it unopened. I'm already using a few non MS software programs like Open Office and have for some time. My next major puter change will likely be a Mac.

elgato · Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 17235 Location: Texas

Vista has been a thorn in my mother's side. She gave me her "old XP" PC which appears to work just fine and is now my backup PC if this antique I'm using now crashes...again :roll:

My mother now plans on trading in her 20 month old vista for a used XP. I've offered her old one back to her but she doesn't wish to do that :roll:
I've heard good and bad things about vista, mainly about the hardware.

DaLizardsLair · Joined: 15 Feb 2009 Posts: 4780

I read somewhere that Windows 7 has already been hacked.

fugazied · Joined: 19 Jan 2009 Posts: 143

Well if you bought vista, windows 7 is an excellent upgrade. If you use Windows XP it's not such an excellent upgrade because some benchmarks are SLOWER on windows 7 than XP (which is weird to say the least).

The dock changes look good, it's more like OS X. It just seems a little sad that MS is releasing a OS with a few graphical changes but all of the junk (registry, old disk system, UAC) still under the hood. MS needs a major re-write, it would be great if they went down the UNIX path too.

DaLizardsLair · Joined: 15 Feb 2009 Posts: 4780

UNIX sucks

tallship

DaLizardsLair wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")I read somewhere that Windows 7 has already been hacked.

You might mean Cracked. Although I don't see any point in someone investing the time to crack an RC, unless they're just so insistant on not having to bother installing the RTM when it is eventually shipped - and remember, Microsoft has never released anything on time - that was part of the FTC suit against them (selling vaporware) - although they have gotten somewhat better.

But hacked? in the sense that you mean it, is really cracked too! A cracker is just a malicious hacker - hackers are good. They write all the code and fix the bugs and improve upon the software we've all come to rely upon.

But anyway, let's stick with the term you used for cracked: Hacked. All mACROsFOT machines are easily hacked in a matter of moments - on the fly, and then you "0wn" the "r00ted" box, as it is said. From there your "rootkit" installs whatever, to report your stolen identity or for use in a distributed denial of service attacked along with an army of r00ted and 0wned boxes.

It was popular for a while for many corporations to attempt to install Firewall systems on NT based platforms, but in order to actually do so you had to almost completely disable the machine by disabling services and hacking (the good kind) the regsitry until there was nothing left but a command prompt.

organizations that didn't do this were immediately penetrated - and people are still trying to sell Windows based firewall systems, which are of course, worthless unless it's an internal firewall behind your main defense systems - which are typically either UNIX systems or Cisco firewalls.

Anyway, if you want a free copy of Windows 7, it's easy to aquire - wait about a week or two for the d/l traffic to die down and then visit some of the more prominent "w4rez" sites, or search for "zero day". Then you'll get a "Cracked" version of the OS you want - usually in .ISO format which you can burn to disk.

These usually come with instructions, but be forewarned, that they many of these may not be able to install upcoming service packs, etc.

The very best version you can get is that released under license to a large enterprise - These special versions are shipped out to companies like Mattel or AIG or ARCO or any huge company - you use the same disk to install on machines over and over and enter a simple registration key - there's really no way to track the installs, but they're highly controlled.

If you know someone who works in support for a large organization, they can prolly give you a copy.

but a cracked copy is really not the way to go IMSNHO, while all Microsoft operating systems are about as easy to hack into as it gets - always keep a firewall in front of your machine, and if you run personal firewall software like Norton (YUK), or ZoneAlarm, or whatever, remember that the best case scenario if someone attempts to root you is the machine crashing, effectively eliminating the attempt to own your machine - use those linksys or belkin routers - that will provide you with your best first line of defense. If you plug your computer directly into your cable or DSL model - well, you're prolly already 0wn4d.

tallship · Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:34 am Post subject:

DaLizardsLair wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")UNIX sucks

Actually, and besides the fact that you uttered an 'unqualified' erroneous and false statement, you couldn't be further from the truth anyway.

UNIX runs EVERYTHING on the Internet, along with Cisco's IOS. Even your mACROsFOT machines run UNIX, although most people don't know it, in two ways.

First, there's the POSIX subsystem, Secondly, after the Win95 (DOS w/GUI) family of machines died off (it ended w/WinME), everything that mACROsFOT has released has been a logical furtherance of their NT platform, which was written by Michael Gardner - modeled directly after and based on VAX (UNIX). It has never run well, is full of memory leaks and security holes, but it does have an excellent window manager (google window manager for what this is).

The look and feel of XP or Vista, whatever, is very friendly to the user, or to be more accurate, has the familiarity that the majority of users have come to be familiar with. Windows' window manager is completely integrated with the rest of the operating system so you can't separate it and use another window manager (except in very extreme cases and not without invoking BSODs over and over most of the time).

This is by design, as Microsoft wants it this way.

In the enterprise, Microsoft's servers really suck - even still to this day - they're what makes for the best job security a VAR/VAD or systems administrator can hope for, as it is almost a perfect world of reboots and crashes and idiosyncratic procedures that involve spending oodles of money for licensing and only very particular versions of mission critical enterprise software co-existing with very specific (even down to the service pack level) versions of the Microsoft OS.

I could provide you with hundreds of actual case studies which I've been involved with at the enterprise level that included thousands and thousands of dollars just in keeping these crappy machines hobbling along, but I won't go into that, except to say that it is pretty much common water cooler talk that a Microsoft operating system is beta software until the third service pack is released (and don't install a service pack unless you really need to or you'll break other things), which is just about the time they are readying their next generation of beta software (This time it's Windows 7, last time it was Longhorn).

UNIX, on the other hand, has ALWAYS been stable, reliable, secure (and when an exploit is discovered just out of zero-day it it patched immediately and distributed), and very, very, very easy to use.

Nowadays, even idiots can run UNIX on their desktops, something that actually was a bit lacking for the first three of it's four decade existence. In fact, SUSE just released their Enterprise Desktop version of Linux which shows great promise for quick and easy configuration and deployment on the desktop.

Out of the box, most UNIX systems work well now as desktop operating systems (although I'm still more of a CLI guy), yet there's still as much of a learning curve of getting used to using the system as there is for people moving from Microsoft Windows to MAC OS or vice verse.

With regards to application software, if you must have windows, you can easily run windows on a UNIX system, a few different ways, or just the windows applications themselves (a better methodology IMO).

It's become more and more common for people to move away from Microsoft application software too these days - such as the MS Office suite. Application software such as OpenOffice.org or Star Office are supplanting the Microsoft family to a great extent due to Microsoft's insistence on adopting .docx, etc., proprietary formats.

Of course, you can spend $400.00 or more for MS Office, or you can d/l OpenOffice for free, and it opens and saves everything you want in/out of all but the most current Microsoft file formats.

If you like Microsoft applications like MS Office or IE, you can run those on UNIX natively - just not the Linux flavor of UNIX (by Microsoft's design)

Photoshop, Illustrator, and other Adobe products are available for UNIX as well, as are most major applications.

But.... The free software that is available is just mind boggling in the UNIX arena, while it's been a bit slower to realize the release of good free software on the MS Windows platform (but there is nevertheless a good deal of good free software for Windows too).

Oh, and relating to my last post, and also getting back to the secure nature of UNIX, you can use your UNIX workstation as a firewall too, with relative confidence.

The speed, the lack of CPU resources you'll use for pretty much any task, and if you also run server software on your UNIX machine at the same time you still won't have to reboot the machine every week or so - in fact you can prolly let the bugger run for a few years straight without bothering to reboot the machine. I've got machines running and serving email, FTP, HTTP, etc., out there in datacenters that haven't been brought down for three or four years. That's very common.

I'm sorry Lizard, but I have to disagree w/you on your point above and quite frankly categorically dismiss it as an unqualified, and extremely uninformed statement that is just patently false.

Kindest regards,

.

purple_reading_giraffe · Joined: 04 Feb 2008 Posts: 5485 Location: Indiana, USA

Ah, now I know whose opinion to regard, even in the short forms we occasionally use in forums. Thanks. :D

So, let me ask advice... I have an HP tc4400 running Windows Tablet XP - business/pro edition, I believe. The Vista compatibility widget says it's compatible. I'm very happy with XP, and I am one who likes to see and attempt to control exactly what my computer does, though I must admit that gets more difficult every year. I don't like it trying to think for me when it prevents me from thinking for myself, i.e. all hidden and system files I keep visible.

So, should I consider upgrading to Windows 7? Is there any good reason to do so?

And, I have taken to installing all the service packs (except the "complete" SP3 as I like and use my address toolbar on my taskbar) mostly because it seems every update is for some security hole or other of which I cannot evaluate the risks of leaving it unpatched. Everytime my computer does something "funky", it always seems to relate to a recent windows update, though. How risky is it to ignore all but "critical" updates? Or shall I just keep installing them until Windows stops supporting XP.

Does Linux/UNIX offer good Tablet support? Is there a laptop/tablet user-friendly UNIX-based OS you would recommend? I have often wondered if I would be happier away from Windows. I was unaware there was much freeware available for UNIX until you mentioned it.

tallship · Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:02 am Post subject:

purple_reading_giraffe wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")

So, let me ask advice... I have an HP tc4400 running Windows Tablet XP - business/pro edition, I believe. The Vista compatibility widget says it's compatible. I'm very happy with XP,

Then I would stick w/WinXP for the time being - especially with your existing machine. I like to sit back a bit and wait for the latest MS O/S's to mature, age a bit, if you will, like a good wine, for lack of a better metaphor.

When Vista was released it was quite problematic for many folks - laptop and tablet users alike. You have effectively skipped Vista, but then again most people were lucky enough to skip Windows ME too ;)

Your tablet wasn't optioned with a Linux based OS, although there's no reason why you can't run Linux on it.

Here's a few links to currently offered HP Tablets, factory new with Linux: http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series.do?storeName=computer_store&category=notebooks&a1=Category&v1=Mini&series_name=mini110mi_series

Here's a link on installing Linux onto a tablet such as the one you are running - I would start w/a new swapped out drive unless you've moved on to another machine, as you want to be able to roll back quickly and seamlessly. Meaning, play with it first and since you run Windows now don't do a cold turkey until you've come to be comfortable with a different (any) operating system - and that goes for the newer versions of Windows too. Run in parallel until you are comfortable retiring the old, familiar friend.

Anyway, here's a little diary on one user's odyssey installing Linux from scratch on a tablet (much like yours) that wasn't shipped from the factory with Linux. Of particular note, is that hardware support is a bit less complete on tablets than for full-fledged laptops.

http://www.germane-software.com/~ser/Files/Reviews/HP4200/

Might be a fun project as well as an intro into Linux on your tablet for you when you're ready to retire your tc4400 :)

I would pay particular attention to ACPI - You want your fans running ;) You will probably want to acquire and flash the BIOS on your tablet to the latest version From HP.

purple_reading_giraffe wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")
and I am one who likes to see and attempt to control exactly what my computer does...

You can control everything down to the most granular level much more directly Linux ;)

purple_reading_giraffe wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")
So, should I consider upgrading to Windows 7? Is there any good reason to do so?

The best reason I've found, and your mileage may vary, is when your machine is no longer cutting the mustard the way you want it too. That would be a perfect time to play with Linux on your old tablet PC when that time comes for you.

I'm not a fan of jumping onto the latest OS, although you don't want to be antiquated when you migrate either. Certainly, skipping right on over Vista at this point would be prudent, although jumping on the "7" bandwagon before the nasty reports of stability issues have largely subsided would be a tad premature IMO.

Vista was rushed to market just like WinME was, while 7 has been in devel for many years - it will prove to be a much more stable OS on par w/XP.

There's a happy medium out there in the timeline, and XP is still a Good OS with current support, and there's certainly no rush to retire XP machines at this time.

purple_reading_giraffe wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")
And, I have taken to installing all the service packs (except the "complete" SP3 as I like and use my address toolbar on my taskbar) mostly because it seems every update is for some security hole or other of which I cannot evaluate the risks of leaving it unpatched. Everytime my computer does something "funky", it always seems to relate to a recent windows update, though.

Yup ;)

purple_reading_giraffe wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")
How risky is it to ignore all but "critical" updates?

This might put your mind at ease a bit. What is generally known, is that Microsoft releases patches (service packs, etc.), that are themselves flawed, while what is not generally known is that they often 'fix' these patches later on - without telling anyone about it LOL! I've got archives of different versions of the same service pack, and the only way you can initially tell is the size of the file!

Microsoft has a tendancy to ignore complaints while silently fixing the problems without telling you that they've done so.

I don't recommend installing new software patches if you don't need them, and I don't recommend installing complete service packs until they mature a bit - critical updates, well, they're called critical, and they're also included in service packs, yet can be installed on their own w/o the service pack.

I think you have a sound approach on this point. I also like AVG, I gave up on Norton some time ago. It just bogs the machine down so much, and AVG catches things that your Norton will never have found too. It's sad, but true.

purple_reading_giraffe wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")
Or shall I just keep installing them until Windows stops supporting XP.

When you can, download a Service Pack and store it in a directory of your choosing - then install it from your local disk. Later, when support stops for that OS from Microsoft, you can install the OS if you want, and then bring it up to the last and latest/greatest patch-level that was ever offered by Microsoft.

It's not very often the case, but for instance, there's a machine that costs about a half a million dollars, and was built by a German company to cut granite slabs with a water jet - the only operating system supported (directly) by that company was Win9x, so I've maintained all of the updates for that OS family for many years, as my client depends on that machine to create their granite kitchen countertops - there is no NT or XP OS based software for that machine in existence.

purple_reading_giraffe wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")
Does Linux/UNIX offer good Tablet support? Is there a laptop/tablet user-friendly UNIX-based OS you would recommend? I have often wondered if I would be happier away from Windows.

The link above to the HP site where you can purchase a tablet PC from them with native Linux support is your best bet, really. But I really don't recommend it actually. You're familiar with Windows, and to make a dramatic jump to MAC or Linux is not trivial.

On the other hand, if you have an old beater PC in your house I would highly recommend cutting your eyeteeth with Linux on that - You'll be surprised at how much is just so natural, even though it's a bit different, and how much faster the machine runs than your brand new shiney one running Windows - it will probably amaze you.

You can get Linux here: http://store.Slackware.com or for even cheaper here: http://www.osdisc.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi/index.html, although I don't think they have the Slackware64 DVD available there yet.

I'm a Slackware stalwart - have been since the early 90's when it replaced the distro I created (Linboard Linux). Slackware 13.0 was just released a little more than a week ago, and has a full 64 bit version.

Other currently hot distros of Linux that are good to start off with are openSUSE, and Ubuntu. Any one of these will make for a robust and well supported platform on your machine, and are pretty easy to install just by clicking next ==> next ==> next...

Six bucks for a complete operating system including more application software than you'll ever use is pretty good for a three disk set :)

You can always just download the .iso images for free, burn them, and boot any machine with that CD or DVD - voila!

Once, and if, you decide you prefer a UNIX based operating system as a desktop, or at least as an adjunct to your current options at home, you can make a more personally educated decision about whether to buy that HP tablet above running on Linux ;)

A trip to your local Fry's Electronics or whatever big box tech store you have in your area just to waste the time of the sales reps demonstrating these systems to you is certainly not a waste of your time, and plus, these places are always full of geeks that are window shopping, and are all too willing to show you how kewl the latest and greatest is - prolly a better resource than the $1.95/hr sales clerks they have on staff there anyway :)

purple_reading_giraffe wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")
I was unaware there was much freeware available for UNIX until you mentioned it.

Oh, my yes :) Try this link: http://freshmeat.net

Just type any kind of software you can think of into the search box. i.e., accounting, CRM, graphics, sound recording, mp3 converter, word processor, screen saver - whatever you can think of :)

It comes down to this - What do you run? a browser? Firefox is installed by default along with a few other browsers. Office software? http://OpenOffice.org and choose the Linux version for your Linux workstation if it's not already included in your distribution.

Basically, I've shown you, that you can simply buy Linux for 6 bucks, dig out that old Pentium Pro PC you have in the garage (or buy one for 20 bucks at a garage sale), and install Linux and run with it in a matter of an hour or so. I think it's a cheap investment that will surprise you when new life is breathed back into that old dust collecting door stop, rivaling the power and speed of the machine you bought last year with Windows :)

Well, I know that was a long post, but I hope it helped out a bit :)

Kindest regards,

.

purple_reading_giraffe · Joined: 04 Feb 2008 Posts: 5485 Location: Indiana, USA

Thank you very much, for myself, and all the folks likely to find this post in the future. :D ;) :D

tallship

No Problem :)

I ask a lot of questions here, and appreciate the input from those in the know. It feels good when I'm able to return such gestures in the spirit of cooperation and assistance on a topic I'm familiar with :)

elgato · Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 17235 Location: Texas

Thanks for helping out on this topic of discussion tallship..... :D

UPDATE?

"Is lower power consumption Windows 7's killer feature?"

It’s no secret that I’ve been left struggling to come up with a Windows 7 killer feature. I think I might have found it, and it comes in the form of lower power consumption.

Don’t get me wrong, I like Windows 7, a lot. I find it a huge step up from Vista in terms of performance, reliability and usability, but I’ve been struggling to find that killer Windows 7 feature. But could the lower power consumption that Windows 7 combined with Intel’s upcoming Westmere CPUs offers be the killer feature.

Lower power consumption isn’t a sexy feature, and if you’re on a desktop system hooked up to a continuous supply of juice it’s not something you’re likely to worry about. However, if you spend any time on a notebook away from a power outlet you’ll know how important being able to squeeze a few extra minutes out of a battery can be.

Microsoft has made some significant kernel changes to Windows 7 to improve power management of cores on Intel CPUs (it’s no secret that Intel and Microsoft work very closely indeed on some technologies). By being able to precisely control the clock speed of cores on Intel’s upcoming Westmere 32nm processors (desktop CPUs are codenamed Clarkdale while notebook processors carry the Arrandale codename) Windows 7 can squeeze more life from a system than one powered by Vista.

Note: I’m assuming that AMD chips will offer a similar feature, it’s just that I’ve not seen any demos yet …

Not only does the combination of Windows 7 and Westmere offer lower power consumption, it also means better performance because each core can execute two threads simultaneously. That’s something that benefits both notebook and desktop users.

If Windows 7 really can squeeze say an extra 1.4 hours out of a ThinkPad T400 in under real world conditions (and by this I mean with all kinds of crap like antivirus running) then that really is a big deal and a killer feature. Why is it a killer feature? Because it’s something that benefits all mobile users, and it’s something that you can’t get from previous incarnations of Windows.

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elgato · Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 17235 Location: Texas

Yep, another update:

"Windows 7 Upgrade: Easy as Pie, or Hard as Nails?"

There's been enough written about upgrading to Windows 7 to fill a library, so you'd think PC users would understand the pros, cons and pitfalls by now.

Well, not quite. Most people get the gist of their Windows 7 upgrade choices, but some tricky nuances and possible snags continue to confound consumers.

C'mon, this is Microsoft. It has to be at least a little complicated. If upgrading were a smooth and easy process, that would be ... um well, that would be Apple.

The Price You Pay
If you took advantage of Microsoft's pre-order upgrade program from June 26 to July 11, you paid $49.99 for Windows 7 Home Premium or $99.99 for Windows 7 Professional and you are waiting for the disks to arrive in the mail on Oct. 22, when Windows 7 officially ships.

If you missed the pre-order upgrade boat, the retail price of Home Premium is $119.99, Professional is $199.99 and Ultimate is $219.99.

Windows 7 Bible: Your Complete Guide to the Next Version of Windows

What about new PC purchases? Microsoft has an offer dubbed the "Windows 7 Upgrade Option Program." Starting last June 26 and lasting through the end of January 2010, if you buy a new Vista machine, you qualify for a free copy of Windows 7. I imagine most buyers will want to have Windows 7 on new PCs after Oct. 22, but if you prefer Vista you at least have the option to upgrade to Windows 7 for free.

The upgrades will be provided after Windows 7 ships on Oct. 22 and will be offered either by DVD or download, depending on the Microsoft partner.

Most PCs running Vista Home Premium, Vista Business and Vista Ultimate qualify for a free Windows 7 upgrade, but all buyers should check with the retailer or PC maker to make sure their new Vista machine qualifies.

The Easy Way to Upgrade
So you've got Windows 7 in hand. Now what?

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