Power Sellers Unite

i_hate_ebay · Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Posts: 84

Step 1: Take an order from customer for a large amount of money.
Step 2: Send product to customer's confirmed paypal address - also pay extra postage to get tracking info.
Step 3: Customer says item never received, files complaint. Paypal Ask for tracking info, which you give them.
Step 4: Paypal decide tracking info is not good enough, so return money to customer, case closed.
Step 5: Call paypals international call rate, case agreed to be re-opened if receipt of postage can be provided. Case appealed, photo evidence uploaded.
Step 6: Paypal refuse appeal because they never received the uploaded photo. Instructed to go through paypals "change your name due to marriage" form to upload evidence again, and to email complaints to notify them of the upload.
Step 7: Upload evidence 3 times just to make sure, and email paypal as instructed. Receive email confirming receipt of email.
Step 8: get Appeal refused again.
Step 9: Call international support again, get told they never receiving evidence. Tell them you uploaded it 4 times now, and hear in response "i can't comment on our technical problems."
Step 10: Get told by paypal that i must buy a fax machine to fax the proof to them, though this will not guarantee anything. Ask why the claims department is unable to confirm whether proof of posting is or is not enough proof, considering that is their job. Get put on hold. Then told that supplying full undeniable proof of postage will result in paypal emailing the customer on my behalf, asking them to return my money, leaving it entirely up to them. When asking them why paypal cannot return the money themselves, this is because it is against the law. When asked why paypal cannot return the money from their monumentaly deep pockets, considering they have made a mistake, get told "we haven't made a mistake." "but they have the money and the product, and ive given you proof, and you said if i'd done it within 10 days you would return the money automatically, but i did do this 4 times its your system that didnt acknowledge the upload" "well... i can't comment.. i will notify the technical team"

And there you have it. Someone kill me now. This is twice in 1 week.

DaLizardsLair · Joined: 15 Feb 2009 Posts: 4782

Nowhere in there, did I see anything about providing proof of delivery. Paypal doesn't accept proof of shipping. They also limit the SPP to parties in the US, UK or Canada. Anywhere else and you're basically on your own.

If this item was for a "large amount of money", why wasn't it insured? For that matter, why not protect yourself more fully, by springing for the cost of Signature Confirmation.

ehustle · Joined: 18 Mar 2009 Posts: 621

http://www.shipsurance.com/

mojavelyn · Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:36 pm Post subject:

Did you use the signature delivery?

pie4himm · Joined: 21 Mar 2007 Posts: 372

to qualify for seller protection I think signature confirmation is REQUIRED for item over $500.00

ehustle · Joined: 18 Mar 2009 Posts: 621

250.00

I'd sig./con on anything over 50.00. It's worth it.

But then again, I'm working with other folks stuff, I don't get to take chances.

i_hate_ebay · Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Posts: 84

I don't get the option of proof of delivery - it was sent to singapore, the only options i have is to send via regular airmail, or airmail with tracking which i did. the tracking info states it has been delivered in singapore, but paypal dont accept this because it doesn't specify an address, so they need the receipt as well and that is enough (thats their words) i sent them the receipt 4 times. what more can i do.

i read somewhere about reporting them to the FSA which costs paypal £360 regardless of whether i get my money back, sounds good to me, so i think i'm going down that route.

I had the same thing last week, the package didn't get delivered it got stuck somewhere and the delivery company would only speak to the buyer, and despite asking the buyer 3 times to contact them if they want their package, they ignored all email contact. paypal is a joke, struggling to find a reason to continue using them for anything other than eGay orders.

GreyJaguar · Joined: 12 Jul 2008 Posts: 309

I notice you are in the UK. Here in the U.S. you can sign on with a fax service such as smartfax.com or rapidfax.com . They offer 14 to 30 days free service before they charge a monthly fee. I use smartfax and pay only 6.95 each month. You can upload you documents onto their site and they will fax for you or you can send them a fax plus attachments by email.

I don't know what you sell other than you state the items are higher priced. When you ship internationally especially to certain countries, you take a risk. You need to make a decision when using Paypal as the payment method for your buyers if it is worth the risk. When you are in a different country from your buyer and the price tag is high, it is difficult to try to recoup your funds.

Sorry this happened to you.

DaLizardsLair · Joined: 15 Feb 2009 Posts: 4782

i_hate_ebay wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")I don't get the option of proof of delivery - it was sent to singapore

Right there, the SPP is voided, since Singapore is not located in the US, the UK or Canada.

i_hate_ebay wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")the only options i have is to send via regular airmail, or airmail with tracking which i did.

UPS, FedEx & DHL aren't available there?

i_hate_ebay wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")the tracking info states it has been delivered in singapore, but paypal dont accept this because it doesn't specify an address, so they need the receipt as well and that is enough (thats their words) i sent them the receipt 4 times. what more can i do.

Signature Confirmation would have helped. And if the purchase price was $250 or higher, it is required. Insurance makes sense too.

i_hate_ebay wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")
I had the same thing last week, the package didn't get delivered it got stuck somewhere and the delivery company would only speak to the buyer, and despite asking the buyer 3 times to contact them if they want their package, they ignored all email contact.

And this is Paypal's fault how? When you shipped the package, did you guarantee return shipping, so that they would send it back?

i_hate_ebay wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")paypal is a joke, struggling to find a reason to continue using them for anything other than eGay orders.

You could always switch to Google Checkout, who has instituted a 10 day hold on funds for new members, for the first 60 days. They also require Signature Confirmation on ALL shipments.

i_hate_ebay · Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Posts: 84

The US/UK/Canada thing doesn't mean it's right to return our money when a buyer makes a claim, when tracking has been given. If i have proof i sent it to their address, it's not my fault if it doesnt turn up EG. They gave the wrong address for example!! If it doesn't it's their problem to chase up with the postal service, who is paypal to play god in returning the money??

Yes UPS etc is here but this product sold for $90 sorry when i said large amount of money, i meant in terms of a large amount to lose, as opposed to it being expensive compared to most things other people sell. $90 is a lot to be flittered away, especially when it happens twice in1 week. So, the cost to actually deliver the product would make it unfeasible. The customer had option to pay for upgraded delivery and chose not to take it. Again, how is this my fault?

No is no signature option - the point is, paypal said the tracking with receipt IS ENOUGH had i uploaded it on time. But i did. 4 times. When my screen says "upload successful" and my email says "thanks for your email" in response to notifying them of the upload, i don't expect to be told nothing ever happened......

I didn't say it's paypals fault, jeez do you work for them or something? But just because it's not their fault doesn't mean they have the right to steal my money back and return it to the buyer when the buyer made no effort to retrieve their order. If a seller informs the buyer "you need to do this simple task" which will result in the buyer getting the product they paid for and all being well, and the buyer simply ignored the email making no effort, they clearly don't care about their product, so why should they get their money back? If paypal decided to return the money to ME then the buyer might suddenly decide to get off their fat ass and pick up the phone. Again, why is my suggestion a more unreasonable solution than paypals "what i say goes, i dont care what happened" attitude? One of the 2 parties involved is doing everything they can to sort this out, the other is doing nothing at all. Why is the latter given instant benefit of the doubt? It's just not fair. As is life.

FSA here i come, enjoy your £360 fee paypal.

mojavelyn · Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:11 pm Post subject:

You possibly need to check your postal regulations regarding mail order rules. Selling online comes under those regs.

Here's the rules for US mail order, telephone, and internet sales from the Federal Trade Commission.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus02.shtm

DaLizardsLair · Joined: 15 Feb 2009 Posts: 4782

Quote: › docWrite("quote")The US/UK/Canada thing doesn't mean it's right to return our money when a buyer makes a claim, when tracking has been given

Since the buyer is in Singapore, any protections provided by Paypal is void, meaning the buyer will win every time, regardless of what proof you have.

Which is why many sellers restrict their sales to the US/UK?Canada. In fact, many sellers restrict their sales to their own country.

Quote: › docWrite("quote")The customer had option to pay for upgraded delivery and chose not to take it. Again, how is this my fault?

Buyers seldom opt for the more expensive option. On more expensive items, it would make little sense to give them a choice.

Quote: › docWrite("quote")But just because it's not their fault doesn't mean they have the right to steal my money back and return it to the buyer when the buyer made no effort to retrieve their order

Did the buyer get their item? That is all that they will look at. You can't prove that they did, so Paypal refunds the buyer's money.

As to the emails you sent them. It's quite possible that they ended up in the buyer's SPAM folder. I've had that happen more than once myself.

Quote: › docWrite("quote")Again, why is my suggestion a more unreasonable solution than paypals "what i say goes, i dont care what happened" attitude?

To Paypal it all boils down to ...Did the buyer get their item? If not, then they get their money back.

If you were the one to have purchased something, and didn't receive it, would you want Paypal to side with the seller, simply because they can show a receipt that shows they mailed something?

If that happened to me, I'd be on the phone within 10 minutes initiating a chargeback with my credit card issuer. And my credit card issuer wouldn't care about any foolish receipt since I hadn't received the item I had paid for. They would simply take the money back from Paypal, who in turn would take it from the seller, plus an additional $10 penalty.

DaLizardsLair · Joined: 15 Feb 2009 Posts: 4782

If you are selling somewhere other than eBay, I'd recommend looking into AuctionChex.com as a payment option.

They are a currency conversion service located in the UK. They are FREE to the seller. The buyer can pay in Pounds or Euros, in a variety of payment methods, including Paypal. The seller can determine which payment methods they wish to accept.

I used to use them on eBay, back when one could determine their own acceptable payment methods, and never had a problem with them.

Now that I'm away from eBay, they are my ONLY acceptable payment method for international buyers.

i_hate_ebay · Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Posts: 84

OK sounds interesting - but why is it any safer to use this service if they accept paypal, than just taking paypal directly? And do they hold your money in an account waiting for you to withdraw, like paypal, or do they put the money straight into your bank?

It certainly sounds interesting, though using them without accepting paypal i think is probably going to be shooting myself in the foot as i am sure some people will only pay with paypal for a variety of reasons.

Thanks for your advice!

i_hate_ebay · Joined: 01 Mar 2007 Posts: 84

And to answer your question above, if i was provided with tracking information and proof of dispatch, and the tracking information said what it did in either of my cases (stuck in some delivery depot/delivered somewhere, but not my house) then i would accept the seller has done their bit, and follow it up with the delivery company, and ask the seller to help if they can. The fact both parties have ignored all email correspondance through paypal paints the picture that they do indeed have their goods, and are taking advantage of a paypal loophole. I can't be repsonsible for delivering goods by hand, the postal service take over once i have done my bit, and they want to talk to the buyer. If the buyer isn't contacting them, and making the effort, why do they deserve ANY protection?

I'm not talking about legal rights and wrongs here, i'm talking about morality and justice!