Power Sellers Unite

quicksrt · Joined: 26 Oct 2009 Posts: 401

Is it sometimes best to have buyer file a A-to-Z Claim rather than just refund their purchase price?

If you refund the purchase price outright when asked to, you save yourself from having a record of an A-to-Z Claim, especially if you lose that cleaim against you.

But in this case, the buyer that says that they never received the items might not get a "refund" mark against them, and can continue to scam sellers with item never received, please send refund" claims made in emails only. Amazon needs to keep a record of each time a buyer pulls this. And I fear that if you simply refund, and no cliam is ever officially made, buyers can do this until the cows come home.

And, if you ask buyer to make an A-Z claim, and buyer loses that claim, does it not get recorded against the seller, since seller won the dispute?

I see times when item is low value and a quick refund can save a Neg feedback, and a lost A-Z claim. Other times I see where I should not give in, but rather go and get their refund demand recorded on the record. They may in fact disappear once you ask them to record it "on the record". If they have pulled this many times, they will disappear.

I'd be willing to bet that Amazon is fine letting refunds to habitual lost items buyers - without getting a strike on their record. And only when an A-Z claim is made does it count against their refund limits.

But I am not sure.

I've had about 5 items in the past 10 months that buyers said never arrived. Each time the email said, "I never received my item, please refund ASAP. I have never had a buyer ask if item was accidently not sent, or if it might have been returned to me with a postal mixup, etc. It is always as if they know that cash is coming their way within three days, and I am just going to cave.

Well, last friday a buyer sent a message saying the CD I bought several months ago never arrived, please refund.

I felt like I should have the oppertunity to send a replacement with insurance if I decide to (if I have one on hand). I also feel that I should be given notice of lost item within 30 days, or 60 max. This was 10 weeks later I am being told to refund.

When I suggested sending out replacement for lost item, buyer said no, I bought it from other seller. So buyer is very late complaining of lost item, but was quick to buy another from another seller before emailing me.

I will not be responding to any more emails re: this item. Because I am not sending refund, and buyer waited 10 weeks to tell me to refund, and additional days to tell me that item was bought elsewhere.

I feel I am being left out of my own transaction. I say let them try an A-Z here on me, and we'll go from there. But I am not saying anything like that to buyer.

elgato · Joined: 24 Feb 2005 Posts: 17240 Location: Texas

"I felt like I should have the oppertunity to send a replacement with insurance if I decide to (if I have one on hand). I also feel that I should be given notice of lost item within 30 days, or 60 max. This was 10 weeks later I am being told to refund.

When I suggested sending out replacement for lost item, buyer said no, I bought it from other seller. So buyer is very late complaining of lost item, but was quick to buy another from another seller before emailing me."

What does YOUR policy state? Do you ship using confirmation?
I'm with you 100% reference the maximum allowed time to ask for a refund. After say 30 days, no refunds.
Sounds as if the buyer is trying to scam you or they found the same item at a lower cost, thus wishing to get their $ back, plus keep the item you sent.
Can you track the buyers purchases on the site in question or did they find it on another selling venue?

quicksrt · Joined: 26 Oct 2009 Posts: 401

BUMP!!!

Nobody has answered this question. It is a simple case of making sure a buyer is documented for demanding a refund. If you hand them the money, and they have no claim filed against you first, then there is likely no record of their refund on their end.

So they could get refunds all day, all night and all year with no limitations (if no A-Z claim is made right?)

cohibastore.com · Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 4908

OK, a-z can suck, but.

if you are seller in good standing, and pay them enough in fees each month, they will often cover a-z claim refunds with their own money for

a - items that are marked delivered by the carrier, but the buyer claims they did not get.

b - an idiot buyer who files a claim without contacting your first, or who is unreasonable/rude/nasty/excessively angry.

of my 10,000 amazon sales i have had 9 a-z claims. of those 9 claims amazon paid 7 of them.

one was charged to me. the buyer was USPS employee scamming the system and he lifted the package before it was marked delivered.

one was a credit card chargeback and from reading the a-z claim i cannot tell who paid it for certain, but i think i did.

when i enter my info/statement about each claim i am always calm. i always point out if the buyer is being abusive or unreasonable, and if its a stupid claim i politely state my dismay about having to deal with "this kind of problem" and that its just seems not worth the risk to keep selling on Amazon if we will have to risk paying every silly claim.

in this area their customer service people are competent. for the rest of the site they are less so.

quicksrt · Joined: 26 Oct 2009 Posts: 401

cohibastore.com wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")OK, a-z can suck, but.

if you are seller in good standing, and pay them enough in fees each month, they will often cover a-z claim refunds with their own money for

a - items that are marked delivered by the carrier, but the buyer claims they did not get.

b - an idiot buyer who files a claim without contacting your first, or who is unreasonable/rude/nasty/excessively angry.

of my 10,000 amazon sales i have had 9 a-z claims. of those 9 claims amazon paid 7 of them.

one was charged to me. the buyer was USPS employee scamming the system and he lifted the package before it was marked delivered.

one was a credit card chargeback and from reading the a-z claim i cannot tell who paid it for certain, but i think i did.

when i enter my info/statement about each claim i am always calm. i always point out if the buyer is being abusive or unreasonable, and if its a stupid claim i politely state my dismay about having to deal with "this kind of problem" and that its just seems not worth the risk to keep selling on Amazon if we will have to risk paying every silly claim.

in this area their customer service people are competent. for the rest of the site they are less so.

Thank you for valuable info. I really appreciate it.

But my main question is still not answered. If I refund w/o any claim being filed by buyer, is this refund not counted against their limited times that they can demand a refund?

Because if they are just asking buyers to refund because they like free goods, they can continue to do this without limit, if we do not deamnd that it be recorded as a claim.

I have had a couple of buyers email and say "if item has not been sent out, please refund now". In other words, "if you do not have a tracking number for me, I am getting my money back, and I know this for a fact".

I sent a tracking number to this person on Christmas day, and that was the end of them. I think they buy tons of CDs, and anyone who does not record the track number, gets a refund demand.

cohibastore.com · Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 4908

here it is plain and simple - too many A-Z claims will eventually get you banned, no matter the outcome or who pays the claim - PERIOD

you do not want any a-z claims

since delivery confirmation and/or some form of proof of delivery is mandatory on ebay and amazon, not having proof of delivery is telling scammers, go ahead, take my money.

so maybe the better question is why you would ship without DC/proof of delivery?

quicksrt · Joined: 26 Oct 2009 Posts: 401

cohibastore.com wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")here it is plain and simple - too many A-Z claims will eventually get you banned, no matter the outcome or who pays the claim - PERIOD

you do not want any a-z claims

since delivery confirmation and/or some form of proof of delivery is mandatory on ebay and amazon, not having proof of delivery is telling scammers, go ahead, take my money.

so maybe the better question is why you would ship without DC/proof of delivery?

You have not answered my question. Nor do you seem to know why I am asking it.

But first I will answer your question. I ship low value items ($14.99 and under) without D/C. Because profit is so low on those items, I can save money not including it. And if item is lost it won't break the bank. Not a big deal. I do not buy my postage online, so D/C is .80. So sending out say 15 items without D/C on them is a nice small chunk of change left at the end of the day in my pocket. Three items were lost in last 12 months, and all were below $5.99 in value. Not a big enough problem to worry about. All $15.99 and over items get D/C, and zero of them have been lost.

Now if you could think outside of the seller position for a moment, and think of it from a buyer's position. Is buyer best off getting a refund sent to them straight away, and without them having to file a A-Z claim? AND if they do this, and they get that refund (w/o an A-Z claim), can they do this without any limitations? As we know buyers cannot get refund from Amazon under normal circumstances.

That is the question. I can handle my own Amazon sales, and protect my profits well enough, and manage my risk. The question is about the buyer's ability to get unlimited refunds, or not.

This is a good question, and nobody has been able to answer it.

coyoteknife · Joined: 07 Feb 2005 Posts: 52

Since you do not use delivery confirmation to show delivery, you the seller are responsible for every shipment that you send. Which means you are more vulnerable to being scammed.

If you consider that people often move is often what happens when parcels turn up missing. Also happens alot more often to Apartment addresses, and buildings that have a mail room, or main office that does accept deliveries for it's tenants. Also cluster/community mail boxes.

I always use delivery confirmation. I do not think you can get suspended for to many A-Z claims, but I've never heard of that? I pack all of my own orders so I usually remember a recent shipment. Certainly not if a month has elapsed, but it does happen. I don't pay any claims willingly if
I am not at fault. I let Amazon cover the loss, it's there A-Z guarantee.

I do require many customers to file a claim with Amazon. I tell them (depending on the circumstances) that I will replace there order but they must first file a claim with Amazon. I also do not complete the claims process until the replacement order (2nd shipment) has been delivered.

Most customers are reasonable people (not all) but I try NOT to place blame on the buyer as a liar, or a thief as 99% are not. I must say that I get some orders returned and never hear a word from the buyer. Bad addresses, people move, servicemen stations change. These are not easy fixes - when an order comes back you lose your postage that was paid out, so who pays for these orders if they reship?? The customer never wants to pay the postage again that's for sure.

The customer that says, hey were is my package? I can show them when it was delivered. The quicker you respond to there inquiry with "as much information as possible" the more trust the buyer will have in YOU also. If it was returned to me I simply send it back out to them on my cost - but usually to a different "good address". I will not reship an order back to a bad address already confirmed as no good. Been there, done that..

I think non-responsive to buyers irks Amazon more than anything. To simply not respond is not the answer. When you do not use delivery confirmation you are the one taking risks, and vulnerable to false claims.
You need to man-up and pay for tracking, or pay for the additional false claims. Your saving 11 cents, man your margins are crazy to play that cheap/cheesy sellers game and then cry about claims?

On one hand your telling us your saving money on tracking service, then on the other hand your trying to cheat the customer when they say - Were the &*$# is my stuff? Either prove your deliveries, or service the buyer, or don't sell on Amazon because I don't want you there either!!

That's why Amazon has buyers. Go back to Ebay, I think you belong there. We've got to many low-ball, bottom feeders on Amazon already. The bad buyers were all trained on that cesspool called Ebay anyways. That's were they learn to play this game to begin with...

Man-up dude...

cohibastore.com · Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 4908

Forcing your buyers to file a claim will just piss them off even more.

This angle is a pointless and a waste of effort. Re-evaluating what or where you sell will go further to improve your profit margin than trying to inconvenience scammers to save .19.

quicksrt · Joined: 26 Oct 2009 Posts: 401

coyoteknife wrote (View Post): › docWrite("quote")I think non-responsive to buyers irks Amazon more than anything. To simply not respond is not the answer. When you do not use delivery confirmation you are the one taking risks, and vulnerable to false claims.
You need to man-up and pay for tracking, or pay for the additional false claims. Your saving 11 cents, man your margins are crazy to play that cheap/cheesy sellers game and then cry about claims?

On one hand your telling us your saving money on tracking service, then on the other hand your trying to cheat the customer when they say - Were the &*$# is my stuff? Either prove your deliveries, or service the buyer, or don't sell on Amazon because I don't want you there either!!

That's why Amazon has buyers. Go back to Ebay, I think you belong there. We've got to many low-ball, bottom feeders on Amazon already. The bad buyers were all trained on that cesspool called Ebay anyways. That's were they learn to play this game to begin with...

Man-up dude...

I think you are very insulting with this man-up dude BS.

I of course would be happy to replace any items not delivered or even give a refund, no problem. I have not had to worry about anything like that. But if it came down to it, of course, what ever it takes to keep the 100% Pos.

And to call me a bottom feeder that belongs back on ebay is just crazy. Where do you get this stupidity? Amazon is worked out fine, all happy customers, and my money arrived very quick, I wouldn't dream of leaving.

And I never said I was trying to cheat any customers. I don't care about paying out on small items that might or could get lost, that is why no tracking is needed on them. The bigger priced items I put tracking on, and they never have gotten lost.

I don't understand the hostility, and insulting tone coming off you. I never have cried about claims. I'm sorry if you are having a rough time, as you seem deeply po'd about it all. Amazon and the whole subject hit a raw nerve with you - that is obvious, the the point of being kind of funny actually.

I manage the risk, accept the loss (if I ever have any), and that is that. Tracking is .80 a package, as I use the Post Office, and do not print out my own postage.

But nobody seem able to answer the question. And that is a scammer is limited in number of refunds amazon will allow. This is a fact. Sorry it is the way Amazon set it up, not me.

And so the question nobody is able to answer is, do refunds count (in scammers total) if no A-Z claim was ever submitted?

cohibastore.com · Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 4908

"do refunds count if no A-Z claim was ever submitted?"

only against you the sellers

Schistosomiasis · Joined: 19 Jan 2010 Posts: 192

Hi Quiksrt,
I've ben selling on Amazon for a long time and I can answer your questions, and some info which you haven't specificly asked but you may want to know.
The nuts and bolts:

1) Can a buyer request of-the-record (non A2Z) refund as often as they want?
Yes. Non A2Z refunds are not recorded or tracked for buyers. Claims which go through A2Z have a lifetime limit of 5.

2) If a buyer files an A2Z claim and loses, does it count against the seller?
Surprisingly, yes. Amazon counts all A2Z claims as marks against perfect customer service, even if they don't find in the buyer's favor.

3) If a seller refunds the buyer before he files an A2Z claim, does it count against the seller?
Even more surprisingly, yes. Even something as simple as the buyer was completely satsified but didn't want the item for some other reason, returns it and gets a cheerful refund, it counts against the seller. However, the bad score for A2Z claims is much more severe.

It's almost impossible to get Amazon to side with the seller. This used to bug me a lot, but now I just look at it as the cost of doing business with Amazon's huge customer base. The general public, after all, contains a certain percentage of jerks. My advice: refund the buyer and move on. You won't win the A2Z claim and a formal claim will hurt you more than a refund. If you have a huge business and can absorb a bad score, you can ask the buyer to file to get it on the record, but only if you can absorb it comfortably.

Good luck, and you have my sincere sympathies. It stinks when buyers know they can get away with stuff like that.

quicksrt · Joined: 26 Oct 2009 Posts: 401

Very much appreciate the fact Schisto.

And I like to plan ahead and know what to do in advance of having any issues with buyers. I cringe every time I send a rare and semi-pricey item to Brazil or Italy, and sometimes France. I can't get D/C on an International package.

I think that asking a crook to "please file an A2Z claim" could in fact result in seeing that buyer simply "go away" and forget about it all. If they know the ins and outs of going on record for a refund, they might even think twice about it.

But so far, I have not had anything less than 100% positive ratings. One year on Amazon, and 750 transactions. Not too bad.

cohibastore.com · Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 4908

After participating in this thread a few months back I have actually found it is now both necessary and useful for deterring fraud.

Of the nearly a dozen casual claims for missing/damaged/lost items which I could not verify via an inventory check, shipping weight or photo, none filed actual claims after being directed to do so.

I state that Amazon tracks claims so if they approve the claim we will happily correct/replace the item in question without question.

Just an observation.

CS

quicksrt · Joined: 26 Oct 2009 Posts: 401

Finally.... someone got where I was coming from. If you have stellar reputation, and you know a shyster when you see the email... then yes, make them jump through those A-Z hoops, and go on record with yet another one of their scams.

You are helping everyone in the long run.